John Cow dot COM - Latest Comments in Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Kim — Fri, 30 May 2008 15:20:46 -0000

The danger in this kind of crap is not only to unwary buyers, but to other internet marketers. After being in this game for a few years, I see it getting worse and worse as far as buyer trust these greedy type marketers destroy. Some even gloat in it. I could write a book on the various scams run by some of the biggest marketers. It's getting OLD! Karma bites...eventually.

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Online Communities — Thu, 29 May 2008 02:37:52 -0000

There you go, I think you answered the question for yourself in that comment alone!

- Martin Reed

Online Communitiess last blog post..Be more productive by recognising the blogging seesaw

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Barbara Ling — Wed, 28 May 2008 15:46:03 -0000

I'm from the old school.

I don't buy mailing lists, period. If I haven't gathered the names/addresses myself via optin ARs, I have no guarantee that the receivers WANT to get my information.

'course, even with optin subscribers, that's no guarantee either....but your chances of being labeled a spammer and getting ISP complaints are far less if they've double-opted into your own network.

I consider the risks of buying a list to be too much for 'lil 'ole me.

Data points,

Barbara

Barbara Lings last blog post..When life bruises you, decorate it with a happy face and rebound

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Big Ben Patton — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:41:02 -0000

While some business people see ethics as something that keeps you from making your full potential in earnings I see it as what it truly is. Honesty and Integrity in Business. Without ethics it turns into a world of black hat scam artists conning each other for money. While the pyramid schemes of past come to mind they did not really hurt anyone per say but were ultimately very detrimental to many peoples making money at home persona or business. For me I will always disclose any conflicts of interest and walk the white hat line. I have always tried to be completely honest in the hopes that while it may not be adventagious at the time it would ultimately earn me respect for having the fortitude to be that way.

While I wish I could say that being honest is the most profitable, sometimes its not; However, I will remain on this course because it is who I am. To answer the question directly I think it would be unethical cut and dry to build a site hold a content of unbelievable magnitude with prizes or content completely unrelated to the site and then flip the site to someone without informing them of what type of readers they will be getting. I know this happens all the time as its part of the make money quick routine that many internet marketers use to earn cash. I guess this takes us back to business 101 "Buyer Beware" A smart shopper will know to ask directly and will know what the correct response is or if something fishy is going on.

Big Ben Pattons last blog post..Is Windows 7 Already A Threat To Vista?

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Nicholas James — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:06:18 -0000

What don't you agree with?

Nicholas Jamess last blog post..The Contest Where Everyone Is A Winner! *

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Nicholas James — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:05:52 -0000

I think both buyer and seller are responsible personally.

Nicholas Jamess last blog post..The Contest Where Everyone Is A Winner! *

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Nicholas James — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:02:33 -0000

There was no reference to anyone doing this...its just something to discuss on the blog with the community ;)

Nicholas Jamess last blog post..The Contest Where Everyone Is A Winner! *

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Nicholas James — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:01:17 -0000

Agreed completely on these points.

As a buyer, i would like to know how the list was compiled and some information behind hit because, otherwise its pointless to use and you might not be able to use it too.

Nicholas Jamess last blog post..The Contest Where Everyone Is A Winner! *

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Nicholas James — Wed, 28 May 2008 13:59:07 -0000

Fantastic comment summed up the views of everyone here!

I agree with this!

Nicholas Jamess last blog post..The Contest Where Everyone Is A Winner! *

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Politcial Disgust — Wed, 28 May 2008 13:21:38 -0000

I would think that someone buying ANYTHING would study closely the business/site/blog and review all of these factors BEFORE buying. If concerned you could easily write up a contingency agreement that returns the money to the purchaser if there is proof of misleading information. this would have to be clearly written up in advance and agreed upon by both parties. the sale money held in escrow for X amount of time and until everything could be verified.

Off line long legal contracts are written to protect both buyer and seller of businesses. why would it be any different online, unless you are are "rolling the dice" and then it is on you to take the chance and live with the consequences.....

---
Political Disgust

Politcial Disgusts last blog post..UN Peacekeepers Shame, Rape, & Abuse Of Power

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Richard — Wed, 28 May 2008 12:02:11 -0000

Aaron, thanks for the comment. I definitely would take responsibility for that.
Please be aware that I would not "label" or "blame" the seller in the forum. But I would post the facts (including that I did not ask). And I would point a forum moderator to that post and leave it at that.
For me that's totally fair game as long as I stick with the facts and don't spin anything (or not disclose the fact that I didn't ask...).

It's like selling fake PR5 domains or selling domains like M0NEY.com (number zero instead of letter o without pointing that out and doing it with a font were you can't tell by just looking). Should the buyer have done due diligence? Yes! Is he responsible for not having done that? Yes! But to me, just because you can trick people doesn't mean you should. And if someone doesn't mind doing that kind of thing, he/she also has to be able to take the heat that comes with it.

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Aaron at FullTiltBlogging.com — Wed, 28 May 2008 11:12:21 -0000

You guys and gals can tell by the tone of my responses here that I would not intentionally mislead a buyer--nor would I encourage anyone else to do so.

When I read the initial question my response was simple: There are many reasons why people join a list, and sometimes a website owner may do a promotion that has limited bearing on the value of that list to the niche.

I don't hear anyone complaining about the contest between Cow and Conn artificially creating all sorts of skewed statistics. Not just the obvious visits and subscribers, but less obvious things like incoming links. Truthfully there is no way a new owner can have any idea how much either site will be worth once the contest is over even with both site owners telling potential buyers of everything they are aware.

Does that make Cow and Conn evil?

I think the labels have to go. People are very rarely "good" or "evil" nor are their intentions completely one or the other. But in my experience most of the people I have done business with online tend toward the good. I cringe when they make a mistake and are suddenly branded as evil.

Black and white thinking is rarely correct and I think we need to be cautious when we employ it. The next person tarred and feathered might be us.

Aaron at FullTiltBlogging.coms last blog post..Internet Millionaire Confessions

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Jay — Wed, 28 May 2008 10:36:47 -0000

"This is one of those fields were we can’t be honest about anything. We just have to be politically correct."

Only if you want to look just like everyone else. Maintaining your integrity and doing Internet Marketing the way *you* think it ought to be done is what will differentiate you from the rest of the pack. You might not make as much money as someone who scams others, but I at least, sleep much better a night.

"This field ranks right up their with politicians, used car salesmen, and the make money infommercials, as far as this field’s reputation goes."

That's because of people who go into it with the idea that it's okay to put your own ethics aside, because "that's what everyone else does".

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

ABaN — Wed, 28 May 2008 10:31:19 -0000

It depends on if I'm clueless due to my own negligence in researching the blog I was buying or because the seller hid that information. If it was my own doing, shame on me. If it was them I would consider legal action depending on the situation.

ABANs last blog post..How to save on gas

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Misato Katsuragi — Wed, 28 May 2008 03:34:15 -0000

Hello Johm,
yes, this is unethical. But then again, look at the field that we choose to be part of. The internet marketing field.

This field ranks right up their with politicians, used car salesmen, and the make money infommercials, as far as this field's reputation goes.

Most of the internet marketing gurus seem to think that there is no such thing as being unethical in internet marketing.

As far as how you promote and run you online business, "What it takes is what it takes" seems to be their moddo.

The are also real good at downplaying and sugar coating everything.

For example, lies and deception aren't lies and deception in internet marketing. Nope, we can't tell it like it is. We have to label it as 'hype', or risk upsetting the status quo and getting a bunch of flak from a bunch of other internet marketers, beginners and gurus alike.

This is one of those fields were we can't be honest about anything. We just have to be politically correct.

"Any way to make money is an acceptable way to make money

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

evilwoobie — Tue, 27 May 2008 22:26:26 -0000

If you sold the mailing add saying that "this add/s hope/s to win the xbox" that would be accurate, and perhaps i'll bite any other teaser/s the buyer puts out in that direction. It's related. The contest is related to the site's theme, so it's not unethical.

evilwoobies last blog post..Online Dating How To

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Noobpreneur — Tue, 27 May 2008 20:57:41 -0000

Hi,

I think it's unethical - but 'norm' in the Net is somekinda blur, isn't it? :P

Please read what I think of things similar to your cow question - Buying Forum and Blog Posts to Increase Website Traffic - Ethical?

That's what I'm thinking about the artificial stuffs and the blogosphere.

Cheers!

Noobpreneurs last blog post..Moving Houses - An Opportunity to Start Fresh

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Mark Mason — Tue, 27 May 2008 16:45:57 -0000

@klein Wow. I think you should identify the unethical things that you are doing (assuming you are in business yourself) and stop doing them.

Mark Masons last blog post..Cloaking Links: Why Bother

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Todd Alan — Tue, 27 May 2008 16:25:02 -0000

@Amy
I couldn't agree more Amy. In fact I dropped a $4000 a month campaign overnight because I learned the product was a little less ethical than I was led to believe.

When I learned the true nature of the product I felt kind of stupid for not having investigated it further in the beginning, but I was new to affiliate marketing and a little naive. And when the money is rolling it's easy to be a little blinded.

There are a lot of webmasters out there selling websites who are perhaps a little naive about the importance of certain issues of marketing and how they might effect the value of their site. So it's not inconceivable for something like the relevancy of subscriber base issue to be not mentioned by the seller because they didn't think it was important.

But I have to agree that in this case where it appears as though the list was pumped up for the purpose of sales value then the seller certainly can't claim ignorance and is clearly being unethical. It's a pump and dump.

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Amy — Tue, 27 May 2008 16:01:26 -0000

Oops, I meant to say, "And not disclosing something critical like this to a buyer is NOT ethical. In fact, in the situation we’re talking about, it’s especially UNETHICAL because the list in question was being built with the specific purpose of inflating the selling purpose of the site."

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Amy — Tue, 27 May 2008 16:00:15 -0000

I know you must be joking. There are plenty of extremely ethical people who would rather give up every dime they had than do something that might hurt someone else.

Morals are something that are personal - a judgment call. Different people have different ideas of what is moral and what is not. One person may think abortion is immoral because it's murder, and another may think it's immoral to keep an unwanted baby. Morals are basically opinions in most cases. I've even heard people with Robin Hood Syndrome (not a real syndrome, as far as I know!) who say it's immoral for rich people to be rich, and it's moral for poor people to steal, as long as they only steal from rich people!

Ethics is something that can be taught. In fact, Business Ethics was a course I took in college. Ethics has a hard, definable edge. And not disclosing something critical like this to a buyer is NOT ethical. In fact, in the situation we're talking about, it's especially immoral because the list in question was being built with the specific purpose of inflating the selling purpose of the site.

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

klein3351f — Tue, 27 May 2008 15:51:25 -0000

:lol: There is no such thing as Ethics in Business! :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you are doing business, you are bound to be unethical in some facet of what you're doing.

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Michael — Tue, 27 May 2008 15:48:04 -0000

sorry, but i cant agrre with this :(

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

Amy — Tue, 27 May 2008 15:43:25 -0000

@JK

I totally agree. If someone bought a blog about knitting, it would be very reasonable to assume the RSS subscribers joined because they were interested in knitting, not because they were offered a coupon for free cat food or 20% off a skateboard.

Re: Cow Question - Is it Ethical, Is it Right?

JK Swopes — Tue, 27 May 2008 15:34:03 -0000

@Amy -

this is kinda what I was getting at, a person looking to buy a site on a particular topic, and is under the impression that it comes with subscribers, would automatically assume the subscribers are interested in the sites content...why else would they subscribe?

That was my whole reason for saying it should be disclosed if you know a majority are coming from incentive-based optins and really don't have much to do with the site...

good reply

@Aaron

I still do agree that potential customers will want to know the methods and validity of the subscribers, but even they probably assume that the subscribers are related to the sites topic and not just incentive-based

In all actuality, no one is going to buy a knitting site, that comes with a ready built list of subscribers, and not thing the list has interest in knitting. That is almost a given, when dealing with niche type sites I think, so one that has a majority of subscribers that may not be all that interested in the topic, and got them through contest entries.......if honest, should feel the need to disclose such.

Most buyer may wonder about the methods but they most likely won't even consider that the actual subscribers may be "filler" and non related...

again, great conversation, and I see where you both are coming from on this one.

Mark Mason spoke about a "New York Times" test, and I like the analogy, if you can't live with a story being written about it, probably shouldn't be doing it.

JK Swopess last blog post..Affiliate Evolution has launched